When lust shuts down your brain

[breakinglight11]

Pondering some things lately that I want to explore here. I've been having thoughts on standards of beauty and dynamics of attraction again, spurred by certain things I've been finding lately in myself.

When women are objectified, they tend to be objectified as sex objects-- that their value lies in their sexiness. When men are objectified, they tend to be objectified as success objects-- that their value lies in their monetary and career success. I get that men get stuck with that lot because society expects them to be providers, but what I wonder is why they get away with being sexually objectified so much less frequently. Women have sex drives and eyes just like men do-- why don't they provide enough demand for pretty men to show up in the media?

I hate to say it, but it seems like in most cases they don't. One thing that's always troubled me in my pondering gender equality is the fact that in my personal experience I have found women to be significantly less invested in the physical beauty of men than vice versa. I know that of the men I have been most attracted to, it wasn't necessarily because of the way they looked, and how far, far more often I have seen couples where the girl was significantly more attractive than the guy than the other way around.

This bugs me because it supports those unequal expectations of beauty that I wrote about once before. It seems to verify the idea that women need to be more beautiful in order to be attractive to men, while men can be less beautiful and still be attractive to women. Which leads to women having to work harder on their appearance, to stay fit, to work on their hair, to dress better, to "put on their faces," while men can get away with putting on weight, or presenting themselves with less polish. That's really unfair, and it encourages women to think that desiring male beauty is basically pointless-- or worse, that there's something weird or unnatural about desiring it.

But still-- it does happen. Maybe less often, maybe less universally, but it does happen. On the rare occasions I DO find myself really, really struck by a man's physical beauty... the feminist in me is kind of happy. Yeah, I know nobody should sexually objectify anyone, it's definitely not feminist to do so, but I must confess I feel weirdly pleased when I find myself drawn to do it. It supports the idea that women and men AREN'T all that different after all, that it probably happens to all of us in differing amounts, and maybe women are just socialized not to do it as often as men are allowed to.

Right now I really really like Chris Evans Captain America. Like, whoa, a lot. Like I'm wasting entirely too much time browsing for NSFW photo edits on DeviantArt I like him so much. I like pretty people, sure, but frankly, any feeling of attraction based solely on appearance occurs rarely for me. Hell, there aren't that many people I feel attracted to at all! What's funny is that with me, there must be a perfect storm of little details about a man's appearance for that to even happen. I couldn't care less about Chris Evans when he looks like this...

But when he looks like this, it knocks the breath out of me. :-)

It's not that I can point to anything in particular, like, oh, I like him clean shaven or whatever, because that's not it. It's just there's a particular confluence here that works for me in a big way, helped along by the "I am a super good guy but also a little awkward" built into the character he's playing. Actually, that's one of the reasons why I don't think it's fair to us straight ladies that guys get to toss off how they present themselves, because sometimes sometimes little details as small as how somebody dresses or parts their hair (see above, heh) that can make the sexy difference.

What's also funny-- or creepy --is how much it makes me lose my mind. I can actually feel it pushing out higher thought. I have heard of this phenomenon, men are accused of giving in to it all the time, but it's a relatively infrequent experience for me. As I said, I'm attracted to very few people in general, much less to the point where I find myself objectifying them. So it's kind of freaking me out how strongly looking at Chris Evans Captain America threatens to push me into thinking like an absolute pig-- to let the feeling in my guts and elsewhere completely overtake the working of my brain. I am at the point where I can't even watch the ads for the Avengers without being all, "Fuck this noise, just take off your shirt and stand there." That, my friends, is pretty much textbook sexual objectification. Who even am I, that that's something that I do? Jared has actually been kind of weirded out by this, saying things like, "What if I did this about Scarlett Johansson? Wouldn't you think I was being tacky?" Hmmm, maybe I would. More likely what I'd think is, what's the big deal? Why so strong a reaction? And yet here I am, having my sensibilities and my good taste swept away by something that in normal circumstances wouldn't be that big a deal for me.

And yet... and yet. Lousy as it is, I am glad that it can happen. I'm glad for the proof that this is something I can experience. There's this one ad for Marc Jacobs cologne that looks like... well, I guess I'll just post it, despite what its presence may do to my blog traffic.

I mean, look at that. Wow, that's... unsubtle. I have a very complex reaction to it.

It's sexualized so blatantly. The man is ripped, naked, and oiled up with just some fake cologne bottle hiding his junk. On one hand, it's tacky. I tend to dislike such unsophisticated, nuance-free depictions of sexiness, and find them more gross than appealing. But being of an idealized standard of beauty and put on display to appeal to sexual interest, this sort of depiction is a rare example of a man being sexualized in a way that is usually reserved for objectifying portrayals of women.  I am very very pleased to see something equalizing in that manner, as well as something that tries to appeal to the female gaze for a change. (Presumably. I have a vague memory of reading that cologne is mostly bought by women as gifts for men.)

Also, I have to say... I find it kind of hot. I really shouldn't, see above about how such depictions are usually gross instead of sexy to me, but for some reason I do. I'm embarrassed to be taken in by such a display. I wonder if this is what it's like when men don't really find exaggerated porn actresses with fake breasts and stylized faces attractive, but are turned on enough by them anyway. But at the same time, for reasons of equalization there's a part of me that is pleased that I am. The argument that men aren't sexualized because women don't like them to be falls flat.

I'm curious-- how often does that happen to other people? When you gauge someone's raw attractiveness largely divorced from their actual self, how often does anyone experience that feeling of lust that you feel it pushing out your higher thought (whether you allow it to or not)? Does it happen to men as often as we seem to think it does? And does it happen to women as infrequently as we think it does? As with the stereotype, I will admit that it happen to me very rarely. But sometimes, one rare occasion, it definitely does happen.

Comments

[bleemoo.livejournal.com]

I think there is a difference between "You're pretty; I want to look at you" and "You're not actually a person, so it doesn't matter how I treat you." It unfortunately seems to be a very subtle difference for many people; enough that it's sometimes easier to just paint all objectification as bad. But as long as it is recognized that the body being objectifying belongs to a person who has thoughts and feelings, and as long as everyone involved is giving enthusiastic consent, I see nothing wrong with enjoying objectification, either as the object or the objectifier. I don't know if that makes sense.

Regarding the Marc Jacobs ad: can someone explain to me why shiny skin is sexy? Or tilting your head at what looks like a painfully uncomfortable angle? I'm all for equal opportunity objectification, but that guy just looks odd to me.

[breakinglight11.livejournal.com]

Isn't a necessary part of the definition of objectification that you're forgetting about the "object's" personhood? I agree with you that there's definitely a big difference between just enjoying the view and dehumanizing someone, but it probably doesn't count as objectification in the former case.

As for why shiny skin or neck tilting is supposed to be sexy, hell if I know. Usually it doesn't strike me as sexy either. For some reason this particular ad works on me, and it has a lot of the markers-- such as shiny skin --of "sexy portrayal" that pictures of men don't usually have.

[lisefrac.livejournal.com]

Actually, that's one of the reasons why I don't think it's fair to us straight ladies that guys get to toss off how they present themselves, because sometimes sometimes little details as small as how somebody dresses or parts their hair (see above, heh) that can make the sexy difference.

Word. Plus, for me, so much of what is as turn-on is not appearance, but behavior/personality-based. Those subtle appearance changes can convey greater behavioral motives.

And yet... I'll agree that I've had experiences like you're describing. When I used to go to Anime Boston, they used to have an event called the Hentai Dubbing Panel, which is really meant to be humorous (they have a bunch of audience members come up and give silly voices to bad anime porn, basically), but it shows some really degrading, disgusting (to my tastes) porn as part of it. And in some of those situations I've somehow managed to be simultaneously disgusted and yet turned on by what was going on.

I guess there are possible explanations for this: one, you're reacting on a purely physical level. Two, thinking about sex--even if it's in a neutral way--will start to get your thoughts moving in a sexy direction, eventually to things you *do* like. (I'm embarrassed to admit that browsing articles about the world's weirdest sex toys on Cracked.com has had this effect on me *cough*).

[john-in-boston.livejournal.com]

Hey, I think that first picture of Chris Evans is from Sunshine, isn't it? Of all his looks, I think I find that that one suits him best. But then again, I'm not sexually attracted to him.

"What's also funny-- or creepy --is how much it makes me lose my mind. I can actually feel it pushing out higher thought." Hey, that sounds familiar. Though for me it's usually something I don't notice until I experience satisfaction, at which point it's like somebody broke the lust spell cast on me.

"I wonder if this is what it's like when men don't really find exaggerated porn actresses with fake breasts and stylized faces attractive, but are turned on enough by them anyway." I'd say that fake breasts can be attractive if they're only subtle augmentations and help complement the actress's overall figure, but that's by far the exception that proves the rule. Personally, I care far more about the actress's attitude and presence (I'll choose a star with a voracious sexual appetite over one with perfect features any day.)
The bigger point is that pornography is also a heavily visual medium, to the point that the sex acts depicted LOOK awesome, but would probably be uncomfortable or just strange to experience in real life (example: standing 69. Does ANYone do that in real life?)

[acousticshadow2.livejournal.com]

I think it is an interesting concept, but I have a few things to say about it.

1. I don’t think men just get away with not having to present themselves as sex symbols. I’ve actually had a lot of conversations with men about the subject and maybe it is just that single men who really don’t want to be single are more in tune to how much media demands of manliness to = sexiness. I’m definitely not saying that the media might not demand more of women, but men are required to fulfill objectification roles as well. Height is a big one... short men may not be less attractive in the face or less built, but how often (outside of Peter Dinkle) do you see a short man portrayed as short and sexy? Often they are the comic relief, or myriad other roles. What about men who have thick beards? Currently, other than the occasional lumberjack look men with full beards are never in cologne commercials. What about men who are not built? Men have to fulfill more roles that just financial provider. They are also subconsciously expected to fulfill the role of physical protector. Men who are scrawny, short, weak sometimes have complexes they have to work through (not all, but many). I also think that men are seen as successful in media if they have money power and a woman. So there is a huge strain to procure a sexy woman in order to appear successful.

2. When it comes to raw sexual attraction I think I’m broken. At least I’ve been told I’m broken. I’m not saying that I didn’t watch the Wolverine Origins for the plot and not really for the scene with Hugh Jackman running around naked.... cause... I really... um... the plot was... I was all over that plot like... ok I watched it every time after the first time to see Hugh Jackman run around naked. (I think the scene was put in just so girlfriends would go to the movie multiple times... in the same way the sex scene./drawing scene was put into Titanic) But that guttural reaction of “hold still and just let me look at you” occurs once in a blue moon for me. The picture of the guy with the cologne bottle does absolutely nothing for me. For me I’m incredibly driven by personality. I do want to think a guy is attractive, but it is about 80% personality and only 20% physical features that turn me on. Personality CAN be conveyed in a picture... For example...

VERY SEXY: http://www.thegoddessblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/shirtless-sexy-cowboy-walking-in-a-field-in-New-Mexico.jpg

Not sexy at all: http://www.3wishes.com/images/sexycowhand-cm.jpg

One has the personality of being a rough and wild man the other a paid model for silly looking underoos. Another example is that Matt Smith AS Dr. Who is sexy. I don’t find Matt Smith in pictures as Matt Smith to be that attractive. So when I see a picture of the guy with cologn I see a paid model being paid to lay there all oiled up and have a bottle covering his junk. When I see the picture of Captain America... I see the shy, but sexy good guy who has the personality. The straight picture of the actor doesn’t have that... It is just a headshot.

Dunno... just for me it takes more than a well built naked man to turn me on... If there is no personality I think of him as a Greek statue. He is built to the specified ideas of manly sexuality, but he lacks anything beyond that and thus isn’t doing anything for me. I don’t sit at home and fantasize about Greek statues, but I might fantasize about a cowboy riding along without his shirt on...

for me at least... sexy = personality.

[offside7.livejournal.com]

Ha! That scene in Origins prompted me to comment, "man, I hope there aren't any pants in that barn."

[blendedchaitea.livejournal.com]

The Marc Jacobs ad left me with a very mixed impression. My first thought was, "Man, that's vulgar," which of course made Feminist!Rachel in my brain pipe up and say, "Hey! Would you say the same thing if the model were female??"

On one hand, I'm so much more used to female objectification in advertising that I probably wouldn't find it so /weird/ to look at, so it wouldn't gum up my brain mechanics so much. Distasteful and not all that likely to make me buy Marc Jacob products, but not so unusual.

On the other, I might be reacting to it so badly because it offends my aesthetics, most particularly my sense of line - that just isn't a good pose. It's grossly asymmetrical and looks uncomfortable as much as it's uncomfortable to look at. I wouldn't know if it were gender-based until I saw a female model in the same position.

[acousticshadow2.livejournal.com]

For the sake of the conversation... If we would like to compare uncomfortable nude poses between the genders where purfume covers the genitals... I offer, for you viewing...

http://www.taratainton.com/images/stories/trysts/2007/nov/18_01_vulva_scent_in_a_bottle_sexy_woman.gif