"Two and a half minutes."

[breakinglight11]

Yesterday was a very excellent day. Got to see flyingstalins, a man I like and admire immensely, went to Ash Wednesday mass and got reminded that I am dust and to dust I shall return, had a lovely rehearsal where not one but two people did the whole, "Come here, you got something on your forehead" joke, and helped Sheena send out his Last Stop character hints.

Upon hearing about flyingstalins' decision to be chrismated in the Antiochan Orthodox church, it made me think of how my mom converted. I asked my mother, who went to Catholicism from the Russian Orthodoxy, how long the process of conversion was. I knew it was very short, I figured it was something like a week. Her answer? "Two and a half minutes." The doctrine is so similar between the two that all she had to swear an oath to the Pope, and boom! Catholic. :-) Needless to say, the process is different depending where you're coming from. 

Hopefully tonight Jared and I will be able to cast Alice. I'm so excited; the hints are all ready to be sent out as soon as we have the parts chosen, to be shortly followed by character sheets. :-) This is going to be great. *bounces*

Comments

[bleemoo.livejournal.com]

Oof. This got long. Sorry. Feel free to delete it if you feel it is inappropriate for whatever reason; this is your journal.

The doctrine is so similar between the two that all she had to swear an oath to the Pope, and boom! Catholic.

Is it odd that I find that fact extremely absurd and mildly offensive? One's spirituality should be a personal, intimate thing. If one can become a member of a new organized religion as easily as "I swear allegiance to the Pope as the supreme and universal Vicar of Christ," that implies that neither the convert nor the organization are taking the process seriously. Alternatively, if the doctrines really are that similar, that points out the absurdity of their separation.

I'm generally not a huge fan of Orthodox Judaism, but they do do conversion correctly, in my opinion. Most of the rest of this paragraph is ganked from wikipedia: Orthodox Judaism tends to discourage conversion, encouraging instead that the potential convert find their path to God through being a righteous Gentile and observing the Noahide laws* and living a life of kindness, although most Orthodox rabbis will accept converts if they are persistent. The process is involved, though. Potential converts should desire conversion to Judaism for its own sake, and for no other motives. A male convert needs to undergo a ritual circumcision conducted according to Jewish law (if already circumcised, a needle is used to draw a symbolic drop of blood while the appropriate blessings are said), and there has to be a commitment to observe the 613 commandments and Jewish law. A convert must accept Jewish principles of faith, and reject the previous theology he or she had prior to the conversion. Ritual immersion in a small pool of water known as a mikvah is required. The convert takes a new Jewish name and is considered to be a son or daughter (in spirit) of the biblical patriarch Abraham, and a male is called up in that way to the Torah. Obviously, since there is not the same stron central authority that exists in Catholicism, the details of the process will vary from congregation to congregation.

Every convert (to any branch of Judaism, not just Orthodox) I've ever talked to has told me they've had to study for months or longer with their rabbi before converting, partially so they'd learn about Judaism, but also simply to test their resolve and commitment to the process. Admittedly, I am not as familiar with the process for someone who is converting from one branch of Judaism to another, and I think it's somewhat more lenient. But I also know some rabbis who make every effort to sit down for a few meetings with any new congregants, be they converts or not.

I'm not trying to imply that Judaism gets it right where nothing else does. I'm sure other faiths do just as good a job as Judaism. And I could criticize Judaism at length; I don't even consider myself Jewish anymore. But I was trying to think of an example of a well-designed conversion process, and I have more experience with Judaism than with other faiths.

* The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח, Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), often referred to as the Noahide Laws, are a set of seven moral imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for all mankind. According to Judaism any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come (Olam Haba), the Jewish concept of heaven. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noah" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and may often network in Jewish synagogues.

[natbudin.livejournal.com]

One's spirituality should be a personal, intimate thing. If one can become a member of a new organized religion as easily as "I swear allegiance to the Pope as the supreme and universal Vicar of Christ," that implies that neither the convert nor the organization are taking the process seriously. Alternatively, if the doctrines really are that similar, that points out the absurdity of their separation.

Hmm. I think it's important not to conflate personal belief systems with organization membership. Out of all the Catholics I know, very few of them agree on a lot of fairly important religious points. One could say the same thing, if not more so, of all the Jews I know.

To me, joining a religious organization (such as the Catholic Church, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, or even the Universal Life Church) is more like joining a political party. I'm a registered Democrat, but I sure as hell don't agree with the Democratic Party platform on all points. But that's okay; the Democratic Party is a big tent and I don't have to agree with everything to be welcome there.

Similarly, I think that in this day and age, nobody in the Catholic Church organization would honestly expect every Catholic to agree with every piece of dogma. Yes, they do officially expect it, but I think if you talk to a priest, they'd probably agree that even within their congregation, not everybody shares the same beliefs.

Now, Orthodox Judaism may be somewhat different in that it's less a centralized organization and more a disconnected confederacy of synagogues. And, yeah, Orthodox tradition is somewhat more strict than most other religions, but I don't think that immediately sets it apart. It may be better to compare "Catholicism" as a whole to "Judaism" as a whole: hardcore groups like Opus Dei might be more analogous to Chasidism, and so forth.

Anyway, yeah. Just some ramblings from a religiously unaffiliated, fatalistic, moralistic materialist.

[bleemoo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was helpful. I really wasn't making much sense. See my reply to dragonwolf below.

[breakinglight11.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I find it extremely absurd and mildly offensive to think one can gauge how the value of someone's spirtual choices based the simple objective fact of what the conversion process entails.

Catholicism isn't an exclusive country club. If you want it, it wants you.

[bleemoo.livejournal.com]

So, I read what Nat wrote, and I reread what I wrote, and I read what you wrote. And I was just dumb.

I'm sorry. I did not mean to offend. I was conflating a number of issues, some of which are perfectly legitimate and others of which are reflections of my internal prejudice, into an ugly ridiculous mess.

[v-cat.livejournal.com]

I feel that I should also point out that the conversion process from any branch of Judaism to any other branch (with the exception of Kabballa which you have to be admitted to and there are all sorts of rules) doesnt really exist. if I right now, having renounced my Judaism some years ago, want to become Orthodox, literally the only thing I would have to do officially is switch Temples. The rest is more about following the doctrine (like making my kitchen kosher and buying a new wardrobe).

also from what I understood, and I may be quite wrong, but there are some fundamental differences between the Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church. For example I believe that RO priests are pretty much encouraged to marry (and in folk culture have a reputation for being womanizers).

[breakinglight11.livejournal.com]

Oh, certainly, especially in practice. Your example above, however, applies strictly to priests. But on matters of belief, as apply to ANY adherent, they're nearly identical.