breakinglight11: (Joker Phoebe)
[personal profile] breakinglight11
Sometimes I feel like the last straight girl on Earth. As more and more of my nominally straight female friends decide that they're at least a little bit bi, I am continually blown away by how few girls I know have that aversion-to-physicality-with-women that I used to think was a hallmark of feminine heterosexuality. And while if this is your genuine setting I wish you Godspeed, but I must confess a slight irritation with how it ties into a certain kind of sexual politics that has always gotten on my nerves.

I've never been a big fan of the expectation that all girls are just a couple appletinis away from a picturesque lesbian encounter. It's almost become the norm that if you go to a certain kind of party that frequently happens on college campuses, chances are you're going to see at least one instance of non-gay girls making out. And when this happens, you're going to have at least some of the guys in attendance hanging nearby enjoying the view. And I find this kind of gross, for a number of reasons.

I guess it's not like it's really my business; people have a right to be into whatever they're into, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. I don't even have a problem with guys thinking girl-on-girl is hot. Hell, I think guy-on-guy is hot, so I certainly don't see anything weird or wrong with it. The thing that does bother me is the cultural standard that girls are becoming expected to feel and express some level of bisexuality, in which men are allowed to have pornographic interest, because that's the way men want it. 

I guess if the girls are willing to do this stuff and allow it to be watched, who am I to tell them they shouldn't be doing it, but are all these girls really totally okay with interacting sexually with other girls while guys look on to be titillated? The fact that so few of these girls actually ever date other girls gives me a bit of pause, but that's not necessarily an indicator of attraction. Heh, I was REALLY attracted to a certain black-haired friend of Alain's, but that didn't mean I wanted to date him, after all. And I certainly think you're still responsible for your actions-- I don't care what kind of pressure is being laid on you, you have a responsibility to yourself to refuse to do anything sexual that you don't want. Nobody can make you do anything just by encouraging you. But I have a hard time believing that no desire for validation and to be considered desirable factor into it, which is incredibly repellent to me. Are none of the things the girls want being compromised?

And worse, it's never the other way around. Guys never make out for the viewing pleasure of girls. It's just not done-- straight guys are straight, God damn it, they don't go in for that fag stuff. It doesn't matter that maybe I'd like to get the chance to watch two guys who don't look either like twinks or like Tom of Finland models. And really, that's fine, but that girls don't get the same respect for the rigidity of their sexuality is not fine. It's a double standard, one I am very much not okay with.

Apparently emerging research suggests that while men's sexuality tends to be rigidly defined, women are more inclined to blurring whatever lines they fall between. In other words, men are more likely to be inflexibly attracted to one gender and one gender only, while women are more likely to feel some level of bisexuality. Of course these are just trends, and plenty of people don't conform to them. I invite you bisexual men out there to raise your hands with me as exceptions to the rule. But this kind of pisses me off because this emerging viewpoint validates that double standard. Yeah, maybe it is true, but I feel like that people will use that to say, "Well, it's okay for me to lay that expectation on girls because that's just what girls are like. But it's totally not okay to lay that expectation on guys, because guys aren't like that."

That is such phallocentric bullshit. I'm not normally the sort of feminist who wastes a lot of time railing against the patriarchy, but here's one case where I will gladly make an exception, because basically, all the standards and expectations are set up by men, for men. Men's sexuality is consider inviolate because men want it that way, and women's sexuality is considered flexible because men want it that way. I mean, talk about being a victim of the male gaze.

What this comes down to is, as a person with a rather rigid sexuality, I dislike that fact not being respected. Since if that rigidity were compromised it would be actively damaging to me, I dislike when its existence is dismissed with "Oh, all girls are a little bit bi." I want to be like, "No, fuck you. Why don't you go stick your tongue down some other guy's throat for my amusement instead?" 

People of course should do what they want. Just because the number of girls who are okay touching each other seems to be going up doesn't change what is true about myself. And of course nobody can make me do anything I don't want to do, no matter what their assumptions or expectations might be. But that double standard gets under my skin, and unfortunately even genuine things that seem to support it are going to get under there as well.

Date: 2010-09-29 03:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] morethings5.livejournal.com
I am going to come back later and respond more thoughtfully to this post, but for now I just want to state that I have definitely made out with other guys at parties, and I'm pretty sure it's been watched and enjoyed by women.

Date: 2010-09-29 03:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] breakinglight11.livejournal.com
And on behalf of all of us who are both feminists AND horndogs, I profoundly thank you for your efforts in the service of equality.

Date: 2010-09-29 03:42 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-09-29 03:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emp42ress.livejournal.com
I am used to this being somewhat less common than women making out for the benefit of men, but is also in my brain as "something that happens relatively frequently." Maybe I see one instance of men making out at a party for every 3 or 4 instances of women making out at a party. And the men making out are much more likely to be doing it EXPLICITY for the women watching.

Date: 2010-09-29 06:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] londo.livejournal.com
This has been my experience in the general Camberville geek circles, too.

Dragonwolf, did you not see dudes making out to applause at Festival Dead Dog last year?

Date: 2010-09-29 08:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] laura47.livejournal.com
i did not see that!!!

Date: 2010-09-30 02:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] breakinglight11.livejournal.com
I did not. But the fact that these things occur in "geek circles" doesn't mean it's happening a lot of other places. We geeks are known for being out of the mainstream.

Date: 2010-09-29 03:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katiescarlett29.livejournal.com
Haha, I was wondering how long it would take you to put this in an entry! :P

Date: 2010-09-29 03:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] contradictacat.livejournal.com
And this is what I mean by saying that we have to start asserting "female gaze" more. And not just in porn and manga.

Date: 2010-09-29 03:48 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-09-29 03:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emp42ress.livejournal.com
So, I don't actually have a problem with women making out for the amusement of men, although, clearly no one should be pressured into doing anything for someone else's amusement. To me, that part of it is no different that wearing a short skirt. Some women are comfortable wearing short skirts for attention, some aren't comfortable doing that, and some just don't want that sort of attention. No one should force someone who isn't comfortable to wear a short skirt, but I don't have any problem with women choosing to do so.

However, what does bother me is that there are enough girls who do this, and enough concept of "bi for attention" that it encourages the feeling that women's relationships with other women are "less real" especially if the women involved are bi. That because a woman is bi, her involvement with another woman is just a game, and only her relationships with men are "real."

Date: 2010-09-29 05:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] laura47.livejournal.com
I hate that soooo much. And people have a right to handle their relationships however they please, but I get so grumpy about het couples where the woman is allowed to sleep with other women but not other men. People should do what they are comfortable with, but it's hard for me not to think that man is comfortable because f/f relationships are less threatening because they are less real, just hot foolig around, not somone she'd leave you for because it's just a woman.

Date: 2010-09-30 02:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] breakinglight11.livejournal.com
In regards to the "short skirt" analogy, that's a fair point. Of course people should do whatever they enjoy and feel comfortable with. What irks me is that it's becoming "a thing that women do" in a lot of people's minds regardless of what differences there are between one woman and the next. The generalization bugs me.

And the notion that it's rendering women's relationships "less real" bothers me as well. I should have devoted mroe time to talking about it in the post.
Edited Date: 2010-09-30 02:56 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-09-29 04:52 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Meh. Girl on girl action actually doesn't do that much for me. No more than any two people clearly enjoying a moment of physicality at least.

Two girls and a guy, on the other hand.... ;)

Oops

Date: 2010-09-29 04:54 pm (UTC)
laurion: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laurion
That was me. Silly iPad didn't have me logged in.

Date: 2010-09-29 05:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] laura47.livejournal.com
Lately I have been increasingly realizing how odd my particular college experience was. MIT dorms have rush akin to frats, causing there to be strong cultures that can last for decades, and I lived on one of the absolutely weirdest and most liberal and decadent hallsin all of mit, and I could talk for hours about the performative female bisexuality, but we *also* had nominally straight boys make out for female benefit, especially at the mardi gras parties which had a mechanic to get people to do such things through beads exchange. And it happened with girls more, and I knew that it was a bit weird, but having come from all-female school and never haing male frends before college, I didn't realize *how* weird it was.

So I think the what you wrote is pretty much accurate, and I'm both sad that's normal and glad I had such a weird experience.

Date: 2010-09-29 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] crearespero.livejournal.com
Even as a . . . "for lack of a better term bisexual", I can sympathize with this. Because I hate it when anyone tries to tell me something about my sexuality --- as if they knew better than I --- or when anyone tries to say that something about my mind exists as is because I am a girl.

Date: 2010-09-29 09:25 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-09-29 10:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valleyviolet.livejournal.com
I think there are a couple of things going on here.

1) Emerging trends are generally going to validate social norms if you phrase your survey correctly. Men are generally taught that being attracted to men is "shameful" but how and where you ask them the question is going to matter. If I ambush a guy in the middle of a mall and ask him if he considers himself bisexual or gay... that's very different than a private clinical setting where I ask if he's ever had "feelings of physical attraction to someone of the same gender". One is a lot less in your face and potentially embarrassing. Lots of people experience a little bit of sex attraction but have no interest in pursuing it.

2) There is a subset of the girls who are doing that making out to get attention. Before we condemn them for bending to peer pressure, we first have to consider: they've been taught that they have no other worth than how sexually attractive they are. If this is what they have to do to be attractive, do they really have another option? Try to weigh this against what you feel your tenants of self worth are built on. If someone you really value made their esteem of you conditional, what wouldn't you do?

The ultimate solution is, we need to teach young women to value themselves for their brains and their wits and their other skills and talents rather than for their looks. When they feel confidant enough to stand on a foundation that's not build on "I am sexy, therefore I am a valuable being" they'll have the power to live their sexual lives on their own terms.

Date: 2010-09-29 10:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twilighttremolo.livejournal.com
I agree with all of your feminist points. I don't really enjoy watching anyone make out, but the principle is there -- if women make out for men's pleasure, men should be making out for women's pleasure.

Two (and a half) remarks on the idea of being "the last straight girl on earth:"
1/2: I get that you're being a bit flippant, so if it sounds like my other comments treat the idea too seriously, oops.
1: since we're talking sexual politics, let's remember that in most of the world and about half of the country, it still isn't okay NOT to be straight. I count most of Hollywood in that figure, and anyone else who treats female/female relationships as less real, but there are also plenty of places where female/female makeouts would be called sick or sinful. I agree that acceptance of sexualities should be absolute and shouldn't include a pendulum swing against straight people, but this is still the lesser issue globally.
2. As someone who is actually interested in dating women,* it bothers me, too, when ever-so-slightly-not-straight women advertise that they're bi. These labels are supposed to help people understand and find one another, and when they're stretched too far, they don't work. I doubt I would date a woman who was less than about a 1.5 on the Kinsey scale, for fear that her interest in me might be "theoretical."

*okay, technically my interest in dating a woman is only theoretical at the moment, but that's because my interest in dating anyone other than my boyfriend is theoretical.

Date: 2010-09-30 03:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] breakinglight11.livejournal.com
I am being flippant, but it's always my way of expressive surprise at just how common expressions of female bisexuality are. I mean, I thought plain old straight was significantly more common, you know?

Of course it is kind of lame to claim some sort of straight-person "victimhood," which I hope it doesn't seem like I'm doing. I just despise double standards. If I have to respect your feelings that you are something other than straight, you need to respect my feelings that I am nothing except straight. Parity is the key.

And as I've mentioned, I should have devoted more discussion to the notion that girl-girl relationships are less real, because it's something that irks me too.

Date: 2010-09-29 10:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] marigumi.livejournal.com
Straight/bisexual guys have definitely made out with each other for my benefit before, just putting that out there.

Also, I've never seen or experienced the phenomenon of girls making out for guys' benefit. Whenever I've experienced straight or bi girls making out at parties, it seemed more to be a "lawl I'm drunk and horny; I want to kiss a girl" thing. Akin to making out with anyone you're not particularly attracted to when drunk, just because it's fun and silly and we crave human contact.

That said, I agree with whoever mentioned the fact that women being gay or bi is kind of seen as not real, because it's a mainstream straight male fantasy.

I do also find it annoying that women making out is considered hot and men making out is considered funny--in mainstream media, I mean. Part of why it bothers me is that I don't like being fetishized--however, if I'm drunkenly making out in public I am Definitely doing it for attention--but most of it is that it keeps male homosexuality from being seen as anything but a joke.

Anyway, I guess my feeling on this subject is that if a man goads girls into making out with each other, then he should be willing to reciprocate, and vice-versa. The fact that perhaps the majority of men would not be willing to reciprocate points to an undercurrent in our society where men are discouraged from any homosexual activity. However, if girls feel like making out as a show, it's not necessarily men's or society's fault for making them. Perhaps they need to reevaluate their self-esteem, though. Also, I am of the opinion that sexuality is in general fluid.

If we lived in a less patriarchal society, homosexuality would probably be less of a big deal in general. But at any rate, what you're talking about makes me more worried about the way sexuality is seen in our country than how women are seen.

Date: 2010-09-30 02:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] breakinglight11.livejournal.com
I'm not saying guys NEVER do. But the ratio is not even, and definitely worse in places that aren't as liberal as the crowd around Brandeis. In this world, conventionally attractive Katy Perry can kiss a girl and like it, but you're not going to hear a straight man singing about it.

I confess my brain doesn't usually go to the "haha, I'm drunk and doing whatever pleases me" reasoning when thinking about these things, even when it's probably the accurate one, because the concept is so alien to me. Forgive me, it's tough for me to conceive of people thinking that way when my attitude would be much more, "I'm sorry, what made you think you deserve to touch me? Shove off, you've just lost eye contact privileges." But it's unfair of me to ascribe my values and motives to everyone else. I guess I just have a really hard time understanding how, as a straight girl, I have such a strong aversion to sexual contact with other women, while other "straight" girls are okay with it, or even desirous of it. It doesn't quite click in my brain.

Date: 2010-09-30 12:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ally walker (from livejournal.com)
woah you can post comments through facebook now? that makes life easy. i like that. pardon the no caps. i'm feeling very shiftlazy today.

i LOVE this post. love love love love. i haven't been able to refer to myself as bisexual for a veeeeery long time, even though (as you well know) i have found myself attracted to people of both sexes, because the first connection my brain makes to that term is "girl who makes out with other girls for the enjoyment of men." which to me is just barftastic.

i don't know where on earth the many commentators on here have seen male-on-male action for the enjoyment of women. do we live in different worlds? i have never seen such a thing!

my biggest issue with this topic is that the female-on-female for the enjoyment of men thing invalidates the sexuality of women who love women. it's not an uncommon occurrence for me to be out with sam and have a man approach us in some manner to indicate that he "loves lesbians" or ask us if we might have a threesome with him. it's not easy for me to laugh this off. the presumption and entitlement that these men have is at once shocking and depressing.

of course, at the same time, i believe that if most people were truly open-minded and not influenced by society to fear the gay, they would fall somewhere in the middle of the kinsey scale. not all of them, but most.

out of curiosity, have you actually been told that you must be a little bit bisexual because you're female?

Date: 2010-09-30 02:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] breakinglight11.livejournal.com
You are absolutely right about how much it sucks that it renders real lesbian relationships invalid. I should have devoted more thought to that issue, because it bugs me too.

I have never had anyone directly suggest to me that I personally must be a little bit bi because I'm female, but I have heard people (usually a-little-bit-bi girls) make sweeping generalizations about all women being at least somewhat open to other women. It irks me, if only because I strongly dislike anyone else trying to tell me what's what with me.

Date: 2010-09-30 04:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nennivian.livejournal.com
I've also had moments when I feel like I'm one of the few girls around who's just plain straight.
(I'm sadly too tired to say much more on the matter at this time.)

Date: 2010-09-30 01:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lightgamer.livejournal.com
It's really just my feeling that no one should make out with anyone for any person's pleasure but their own.

I'm not sure how I feel about making out with people as a form of entertainment for others for which one should expect some reciprocation from said others.

Date: 2010-09-30 02:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] breakinglight11.livejournal.com
I tend to agree. But as I said, I guess if that's what people want to do, who am I to tell them they shouldn't? As regards the reciprocation thing, again, it's not that I think that's something RIGHT. But I feel like if you're going to expect something from someone, it's only fair that you're willing to be treated the same way you treat them.

Date: 2010-10-02 01:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] acousticshadow2.livejournal.com
Well, just my 2 cents. I'm completely straight. I can appriciate the female body's beauty, but have NO desire whatsoever to in anyway, even for the enjoyment of a man do anything sexual with another woman.

On the flip side, I really don't want to watch 2 guys kissing either. I'm fine with people doing whatever they want. It is none of my buisness, but I find absolutely NOTHING arousing about watching guy-on-guy, or girl-on-girl... to think about it. I don't find anything attractive about watching other people in general kiss at all.

In reguards to all this, I do know where you are coming from. I have lost respect for several girls I know who "experiment" with kissing other girls because it gets them the attention of guys. It annoys me too.

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